Alien Resurrection

[Forge]

I advise that if people are going to do a normal release, then make it completely normal (no modified cons or new sounds).  The reason is, there are enhancement mods that we like to use with Duke maps, but it's hard to use these mods if the map already comes with changed cons.  In my opinion, if you aren't going to go all the way and make it a TC, or design it for DP or AMC TC etc,  then release it as a 100% normal map.  And I would say the same about any maps or episodes in development.  Releasing a normal vanilla map is fine.  Releasing a map for a big mod or TC is fine.  But releasing a map with slight con modifications puts it in a kind of no man's land.

This is crap. Making con changes is fine. If someone can't use a game modification, then so be it. And there's no reason to go all out and make a map into a TC just because it has some con changes. (i.e. every map that has a queen miniboss or a few new sounds now needs to be a TC? Too extreme and unnecessary.)

[Dan G]

And there's no reason to go all out and make a map into a TC just because it has some con changes. (i.e. every map that has a queen miniboss or a few new sounds now needs to be a TC? Too extreme and unnecessary.)

If someone wants a queen miniboss and their map is otherwise vanilla, then they should just put in a pal queen and then it will work with Duke Plus (and probably Nuclear Showdown and some other existing mods).  There is no need to include cons at all in that case.

You say, "If someone can't use a game modification, then so be it."  That's fine if you want to take that attitude, but I think most mappers want their levels to be played by the largest audience possible, and my advise was given with that in mind.

Example:  when Bob Avril made his last map a few years ago, he wanted a few new effects (the queen laying eggs, and eggs spawning small newbeasts iirc), and he wanted it to work in JFDuke.  I obliged him by modifying the vanilla cons to add just those two things.  And I'm pretty sure that now even fewer people have played that map than would otherwise have played it.  There are lots players who don't want to fuck around with installing modified cons just for one map.  You are an exception.

[Mikko_Sandt]

I advise that if people are going to do a normal release, then make it completely normal (no modified cons or new sounds).  The reason is, there are enhancement mods that we like to use with Duke maps, but it's hard to use these mods if the map already comes with changed cons.

I agree with Forge. If you can't run a map using a modification the author never even thought about while building the map then so be it. The author should do whatever reasonable his vision requires and not what some players who want to play the map the way the author did NOT intend the map to be played.

If someone wants a queen miniboss and their map is otherwise vanilla, then they should just put in a pal queen and then it will work with Duke Plus (and probably Nuclear Showdown and some other existing mods).  There is no need to include cons at all in that case.

The need to include cons is to have a Queen miniboss. Forcing the player to "install" this extra con is a much smaller inconvenience than installing a modification such as DP.

And I'm pretty sure that now even fewer people have played that map [BobSPX] than would otherwise have played it.  There are lots players who don't want to fuck around with installing modified cons just for one map.  You are an exception.

Eh, wtf?

[Dan G]

I think you guys are missing my main point and taking my comments in the wrong spirit.  I am NOT trying to get people to use DP or any other mod.  My advice is based on the assumption that the mapper wants maximum exposure for his map.

Whenever a map comes with extra stuff (art, cons, sound) that is required for the map, it makes it less convenient to play.  No matter how trivial the inconvenience may seem to you, the fact of the matter is that it drives away a certain percentage of potential players.  Therefore, IF you care about maximizing the number of people who will play the map, then the decision to require extra stuff for the map to work should not be taken lightly.  A regular user map can be dropped into a player's map folder and they can play it with vanilla Duke, or with Duke Plus, or Nuclear Showdown, or whatever.  If it has extra shit like cons with trivial edits and/or user art, then you need a special .bat run it or you need to move cons around, you can't play it with certain mods, and in short it's not going to find a place amongst the average player's ready-to-go user map collection.

Now, once you have made the decision that your map is going to require extra stuff to work, once you have crossed that line, the next question is whether the map will be for an existing mod, or whether to make your map into its own little mod.  If there is already an existing mod with the features you want, then you might be better off making your map for that -- it saves you some work, and the fans of that mod will most likely play your map, as well as anyone else who is interested.  Making your map for an existing mod will reduce the potential audience of your map, but maybe not so much if the mod is popular, and you get the benefit of all that mod's features.   On the other hand, maybe you don't want to make an existing mod a requirement for whatever reason, and all you want are a few minor changes from vanilla Duke.  Hey, if that's what your project needs, then so be it.  But be aware that you are cutting your map off from a lot of players and you aren't getting much in return (just a few little features you need).

[Gambini]

I guess there are a lot of players that, like me, launch duke, hit the ¨user map¨ option and choose the map that calls the attention as a first.

I keep a lot of maps with my duke copy, sorted in folders by quality/era etc. They´re certainly a kind of treasure, i always find something good there.

Obviously i can´t do that if the map requires special cons or art files, in which case i should have a folder for each map, with its necessary files and copy them into my duke root (messy thing that i HATE to do). Not mentioning that i can´t play the map using DP, if these needed files are con files. There you have obviously a very limited replay value. An average map that messes my duke folder is only worth playing if it has been made for some guy with whom i get along.

There are some exceptions where i find these ¨custom content¨ files trivial and just keep the map as any other standalone map, with the little lose of that special content, but with the plus of a bigger chance of playing it again.

Some examples of maps that having custom content are still very playable without it:

Earth Base by Mikko (i´ve never played it with the custom art)

MRCK´s Happy Hangover and DNF BTTG

Maarten´s and Mrline´s maps most times include special sounds.

I´ve played those maps not less than five times each one. But for much i liked them i´m sure i would not have played them neither the half of times if i would had to do all the installation schedule. I would avoid at all cost to include custom content, at least the kind of content that makes the map unplayable without it.

[Mikko_Sandt]

Whenever a map comes with extra stuff (art, cons, sound) that is required for the map, it makes it less convenient to play.  No matter how trivial the inconvenience may seem to you, the fact of the matter is that it drives away a certain percentage of potential players.

I understand this argument but you're taking it to an extreme. I don't think the amount of people who skip maps that have new cons is significant at all whileas you're arguing that the average player skips maps that have new cons.

Hell, I'd even consider including cons simply as means to drive away players who're unfit to play my maps.

If there is already an existing mod with the features you want, then you might be better off making your map for that -- it saves you some work, and the fans of that mod will most likely play your map, as well as anyone else who is interested.

This I don't understand at all. The player is required to download the mod then, which is a lot bigger inconvenience than forcing him to install a new con file, which is of course not any bigger an inconvencience than installing the map itself.

While I think DP is great and I'm always anxious to play new DP maps, I agree with Met that in terms of feeling, DP and vanilla Duke are vastly different. I wouldn't want a vanilla map to be played using DP unless it's a second or third playthrough. By playing a map in DP you change a lot more than just one Queen's attributes even if that's all you were going for.

[Dan G]

By the way, Puritan's last map, Nostromo, is a good example of how you can limit your audience by making your map into a mini-mod.  Almost all of the discussion about the map subsequent to its release concerned problems with installing it.  After it was fixed and a re-release thread was made, there were a few more comments about the map from the usual suspects, but I think it would have been played by more people had it been a vanilla map OR a Duke Plus map.

[Mikko_Sandt]

I checked the two threads and the only one complaining about the bat was The Commander and he complains all the time. (Not to mention that Puritan did fuck up the bat file initially, although 90% of those who play the map have no idea what happens when they run the bat file so this really doesn't even matter.) You have no evidence that the cons played a significant part in the lackluster response (if you can call it that; the response wasn't really untypical). Unorthodox gameplay & theme are more likely to have rendered the map a bit difficult to approach. For example, members such as Met and Nancsi who prefer vanilla stuff are less likely to comment on unorthodox maps.

I'm not disputing that single maps with plenty of extra stuff (arts, sounds, cons) may in general be a bit harder to approach (or they may be the total opposite) but you were talking about a single con file. The only reasonable complaint against including a needed con file is that it's incompatible with mods, not that it's too inconvenient to unzip a con file along with the accompanying map file.

[Dan G]

The only reasonable complaint against including a needed con file is that it's incompatible with mods, not that it's too inconvenient to unzip a con file along with the accompanying map file.

Did you read Gambini's post?  He amplified on a point I had made earlier, to the effect that maps which need special cons (or other stuff) can't be kept with vanilla maps and so don't get played as much.  So it's not just about mod incompatibility.

Here's an analogy.  Suppose that 95% of your music was in mp3 format, but the other 5% was in a special format that your player could not handle unless you changed a setting every time (and it had to be changed in a different way for each track).  With all of that easily accessible music to choose from, most people would not bother with that 5% (or maybe they would one time but not listen to it again after that).   Maps that need special stuff to work are like that 5%.  Maps made for a mod are also at somewhat of a disadvantage, in that you have to fire up the right mod if you want to play them.  But at least if you have a large number of maps for the same mod (as there are for DP), then the player can fire up the mod and play any of the maps without further adjustments, so that's more convenient than a map with its own individual content.

[William Gee]

I think it comes down to the way the mod is packaged, Its possible to have 100 different mods(all using different art/sounds/maps/cons) with 50 user maps and 1000 classic maps all in the same folder and they all are able to work, if they are packaged nicely. I have a folder with 20+mods and 100+ maps all able to work fine.

To be honest I don't like the way some modern mods are packaged, I like simple 1 con 1 grp games with no extra folders. Or with the extra HRP stuff in a zip.

I would rather the smallest\simplest installation possible for whatever project.

Nostromo is a example of how not to package a mod, he should of made a NOS.CON NOS.GRP NOS.BAT in a zip and it would of been fine.

Also there are some maps with tiny con changes that I would never want to play on DP.

[Forge]

Did you read Gambini's post? 

Did you read your own post? You're deviating from your original statement. - Don't make maps with cons because it prevents players from using mods. If you make maps with cons, then you might as well go all out and make a TC -

If the map is good enough I don't care if I have to dance naked under the moonlight to get it to work, I'm still going to go through the motions to play it. (i.e. big light or bedrone to name a couple that have additional files). Like WG said; if it's messy, I'm fully capable of packaging everything into a group, making a .bat, and then a shortcut to launch it for my convenience (stated just to counterpoint Gambini  ). But I have so many maps, tc's, mini-episodes, etc. that I could play 5 of them every day and not play the same one again for over five years.

btw; apparently I'm not the only one around here who hijacks threads

[Mikko_Sandt]

Did you read Gambini's post?

So Gambini is your idea of a random sample?

to the effect that maps which need special cons (or other stuff) can't be kept with vanilla maps and so don't get played as much.

You initially spoke of maximum exposure. By that you meant, I'm sure, that the map reaches as many people as possible, not that one player playing the map ten times is equal to ten people playing the map once. People don't download new maps in order to store them but in order to play them. Gambini's post is of no relevance. (The replay value of a map has a lot more to do with things other than how easy it is to store the map. Even if Nostromo had no extra stuff, it'd still be replayed less often than, say, some medium-size typical city map by Alejandro.)

Ask yourself, is the average player even aware of the presence of new cons in the zip before he downloads the map? I don't think so, because the presence of cons is not always explicitly mentioned and because factors such as screenshots and ratings count more than what's said in the review even if the presence of cons is mentioned somewhere. Once the map is on your hd, is it likely that you're going to skip playing it simply because you discover a bat file inside? If 10% of players do, does this prove your point?

Here's an analogy.  Suppose that 95% of your music was in mp3 format, but the other 5% was in a special format that your player could not handle unless you changed a setting every time (and it had to be changed in a different way for each track).  With all of that easily accessible music to choose from, most people would not bother with that 5% (or maybe they would one time but not listen to it again after that).   Maps that need special stuff to work are like that 5%.  Maps made for a mod are also at somewhat of a disadvantage, in that you have to fire up the right mod if you want to play them.  But at least if you have a large number of maps for the same mod (as there are for DP), then the player can fire up the mod and play any of the maps without further adjustments, so that's more convenient than a map with its own individual content.

It's a poor analogy because maps with new cons do not qualify as something that "need special stuff to work" in a way similar to your music example. The installation process for maps with cons is exactly the same: unzip and play. In fact, if the map comes with a bat file, the process is easier since you don't have to go through any menus to play the map.

DP maps however do qualify as maps that "need special stuff to work", the kind of stuff you need to get separately.

Of course, DP as a mod is, I'm sure, a lot more popular than an average usermap, DP or non-DP, so having your map included as part of an official DP version is, potentially, good exposure but since there are around 20 maps in DP, the probability of any single one of them getting played is a lot lower than that of DP as a whole.

[Dan G]

A few points and then I'm done.

@Forge:  I didn't hijack the thread, I replied directly to Puritan regarding his suggestion that his map might require some cons and stuff.  Then you guys replied to me and we have been staying on that same topic, which is still relevant to this map.  The map isn't released yet so there's no harm in having this discussion now.

@Mikko:  No one has any random samples here.  You and Forge don't make a random sample either.  Something that reduces the likelihood of a map being kept around on people's hard drives and replayed does limit its exposure in the long term; I don't know why you assumed I cared only about initial exposure.

@Everyone:  How it's packaged and organized does matter.  Most maps that need cons come with "game.con" or "user.con" or "eduke.con" any one of which will require renaming or moving of your stuff.  (The inclusion of .art files has historically presented a similar problem, though it can be avoided with proper packaging)  Yes, a _sensibly written_ .bat is nicer, because then you can avoid that and have the map start right up.  Unfortunately, it will still not work properly as a user map selected from the in-game menu, so it is still quarantined from other user maps in that respect (but I concede that is a non-issue to some players).

[Puritan]

1 zip
1 bat

That's all you need for a map, cons and sound effects. (any proper file goes).
The zip works as a 'grp' file. Then you don't have to worry about mixing up your files.

[Gambini]

if the map comes with a bat file, the process is easier since you don't have to go through any menus to play the map.

What´s the percentage of .bat files that actually work at the moment of playing? 10%?

Most them have written the duke3d.exe command inside and, as always, changing it doesn´t fix the problem. Bat files are usually the worst way to play a map.

Something that could work would be a sort of savegame. Savegames don´t need the map nor the .con files to work, but unfortunatelly they require the same port version, what makes it even worse since there are new snapshots every a week or so.

Maybe my way to play maps is unusual. But the proof is that single map files resist the time a lot more than mods or maps with custom content. And that´s because they´re compatible with every port or add-on such as DP or the HRP. We could also categorize Dukeplus maps into the same problem of course. But that ´s because they´re included in the mod and it´s being updated often, thing that requires to delete the old and install the new one. That migth not be a problem anymore once the mod is finished and people can just download standalone Dukeplus maps.